Bishop Potter and Cardinal Gibbons on Strikes
(Copyright, 1904, by Frank. O. Carpenter )
rcw YORK. Jan. 18 (Special Cjr-
Nl rispondince of The Bee.) I give
I vou today the views of two of the
ablest divines of the country on
.he struggle which Is now going
on between labor and capital. The men are
especially noted as thinkers and they are
friends of the public. One Is Bishop Henry
C. l'otter, the hend of tho l'rotestant EpIS"
copal church of New York, and the other
James Cardinal Gibbons, the chief of Ho
rn an Catholicism on the North American
continent.
It was In his apartments on West Forti
eth street that I met Bishop Totter. Going
up the elevator, I was taken Into a little
reception room walled with books and fur
nished In blue as delicate as that of the
Blue room of the White House. A sawed
oft boy In buttons took my card to the
bishop, and a moment later a tall,' straight,
broad-shouldered man In clerical dress
tood before me. It was Bishop Totter.
I should have known that he was ft
preacher had I met him In the midst ot
Broadway Instead of there In bis study.
He looks the eminent divine. His head la
big, his forehead high and broad; his side
whiskers are cut In formal Episcopal style
and the words drop from his Hps so clean
cut that they made me think of a copper
plate engraving. I had written him my de
sire for the Interview, and In response to
my questions he began at once.
"The struggle now going on between
labor and capital Is a serious one," said
he, "but I have no doubt but that time and
the forces at issue will bring it to a suc
cessful conclusion. Neither the labor unions
nor the employers soem to regard the
greatest factor In it. They forget that the
majority of our people are neither laborers
nor capitalists. The capital class Is small,
and It Is estimated that there are 4.000,000
people dependent on the wages of organized
labor. We have a population of 80,000.000,
so that there are 76,000,000 outside. That
76,000,000 may allow organised labor to In
convenience them for a time, but they
will never permit It to rule. As soon as
the Inconvenience becomes too great they
will rise up In arms and put an end to It
tn one way or another. I don't think the
labor unions realize this. They do not
seem to appreciate the fact that they may
raise a spirit of antagonism to their cause."
"You mean that they may make the peo
ple hate them?"
"Yes, I mean Just that," said the bishop.
"But. Bishop rotter." said I, "the laborer
Is certainly worthy of Ms hire. It Is labor
that creates the wealth of the country and
It would seem to me that labor ought to
fight for Its rights."
"Yes," replied the bishop, "it should,
provided It knows what Its rights are. It
Is ridiculous, however, to say that the
wealth of the United States has been cre
ated by mere musculo force, that Is, by
the work of the day laborer. Such work
alone has created no considerable part of
our wealth. Tho men who furnish It might
toll a thousand years If they could live so
long and have a product no greater than
at tho end of the first day or the first
week. They have their everlasting dully
wants to devour their dally production and
It Is only when foresight, extraordinary
ability and the genius of Invention come In
that their work can be so directed and
used as to creato wealth.
"The relations of labor and capital," con
tinued Bishop Totter, "are In some respects
like those of the elephants and their mas
ters In the lumber yards of the fur east.
As you enter the shipyard at Rangoon,
Burma, you may see those huge unwleldly
animals loading, unloading and stacking
timbers. They seize great logs of oak,
mahogany or teak wood with their tusks
and trunks; they balance them carefully
and carry them through winding path
ways out of the ships to the wharves and
place them Just where they are needed.
Their Intelligence seems wonderful and
their ability beyond conception. As you
look closer, however, you see a lltle black
figure upon the neck of the elephant. He
baa a stick In his hand, but he rarely
raises It and never strikes. Watch hltn
closely, however, and you will see that
bis bare heel rests with an 1ntrriUte.r.t
pressure on the neck of the huge animal
be rtdre and there you have the secret of
the whole business. The brute obeys the
man. The clever Intelligence of the Bur
nan's heel guides, directs, restrains, con
strains and energises the enormous living
bulk beneath him and converts it from a
destroying monster Into a faithful and
untiring servant. That Is how the genius
of capital uses labor by Invention, con
struction, organization and direction."
"But the elephant has tho right to his
feed," said I. "Does labor get Its share of
the profits?"
."It Is getting more every year and cail
tal less," was the reply. "This Is especially
so as to the real profits; that lit, the c im
tnoditl's taat can be bought with the
money received from capltul and labor. I
don't think that It la generally considered
that the great bulk of the capital of the
country consists of an aggregation of small
urns owned by people who are dependent
Tapon them for their living. Take the widow
3
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BISHOP POTTER TN 1904 From ft
I'hoto Copyright, 1S04, by Bradley,
New York.
whose all U the sum of $5,000 which she
has to safely Invest.
"In 1860 that widow could put this sum
Into a safe bond which would bring her 7
per cent, or $350 per year. At the same
time suppose a man received a dollar a
day for his work and that he worked 300
days in the year. His Income would be
$300 a year, or $50 less than tho earnings
of the widow's $0,000. Now It Is estimated
that since I860 wages have Increased about
60 per cent, so that the $1 a day man of
1860 would now get at least $0 or $1.8)
more than he got In 1S60. At the same time
the widow's earnings have been reduced
to 4 per cent Instead of 7 and her Income
from the $6,000 is only $200, Instead of $350.
She has lost $150 and the worklngman has
gained $180. That Is an example of how
labor Is annually getting a greater share of
the profits."
"But what will be the end of It all?" J
asked.
"It will come out all right," said the
bishop. "The situation of today Is merely
an Incident In our history. We are now In
a transition state, but In the end matters
like these regulate themselves. 1 have no
fears for the future."
I met Cardinal Gibbons In the library of
his residence at Baltimore. His bouse la
a big gray stone building of many rooms,
Just back of the cathedral. It has a cold
air about the Interior, as though the hand
of woman wore absent. And so It Is. A
colored boy In livery meets you at the door
and you find only priests and students
within. The cardinal Is now 68 years of
age. He is tall and thin, with a face bear
ing tho evidence of hard study. He Is very
dignified, but at the same time kindly,
speaking freely and Interestingly on every
subject. I found that he had recently de
livered a sermon on labor and his first
words were on "The Sweatshops of Balti
more." He said:
"The sweating system Is a disgrace to the
country. We have a large class of pir. ons
here In Baltimore employed by the pro
prietors of the clothing establishments.
Some of them work In the stores and others
In their own homes, bringing their gar
ments to the establishment. These people
are overworked and underpaid. I find that
they put In six days, of ten or twelve hours
each, for from $6 to W per week. With this
plttame they have to pay for house rent,
food, clothing and all the expenses Inci
dent to family life. They have ha: dry
enough to keep them from starving, and
the n-sult la that after a few years they
are Incapacitated for work. I find that
many of them are compelled to toll In
sweatshops contracted In space and poorly
light .-d."
"How can the matter be remedied, your
eminence?" I asked.
"One jray is to arouse public attention to
tho grievance and discriminate in favcr of
goods made In other establishments. We
have in Baltimore a Consumers' league, ths
members of which agree to purchase only
such goods ss are made In ranitary quar
ters, with reasonable working hours ard
fair wages. The league has a label, which
Is put on all goods made tn such placed.
I think it Is a good thing and ought to be
patronised. "
"How about the labor organisations, your
eminence. Do you approve of IheniT"
JAMES CARDINAL, GIBBONS From a Photo Copyright,
Baltimore.
1304, by Bachrach,
"Yes," replied the cardinal. "I see no
reason why our working men should not
combine together for their own protection
and benefit. This Is an age of organization.
We have syndicates, trusts and all sorts
of combinations of capital, why should we
not have organizations- of labor? The labor
union Is an emblem of freedom. It Is the
legitimate child of the trade guilds of old
England. It has nothing to conceal, and it
takes from man the pretext for the forma
tion of dangerous secret societies."
"That Is so," said I, "but It al?o origi
nates trouble. It causes strikes and boy
cotts." "That is true," replied the cardinal, "but
I think the day will come when such things
will pas away, and when arbitration and
conciliation will take the place of strikes.
The disputes between capital and labor can
be and should be amicably settled.
"As to strikes, I think they are at best a
questionable remedy for labor troubles.
They paralyse Industry, foment passion
and lead to the destruction of property.
They keep the men, In enforced idleness,
during which their minds are clouded with
discontent, and they often cause great suf
fering to the workman's family. I don't
approve of the boycott I regard It as an
unwarrantable Invasion of the commercial
privileges guaranteed by the government to
every business firm. A man has the right
to select the place where he deals and
you violate that right when you keep him
from doing so by the order of any society.
Such a prohibition assails the liberty of
the purchaser and the right of the seller."
"Your eminence Is looked upon as the
paternal friend of both capital and
labor. Can you not give me some advice
to capitalists as to the treatment of their
employes?"
"If I were to do that," was the reply, "I
should merely ask them to keep In view the
golden maxim of the gospel, 'Whatsoever
ye would that men should do unto you, do
ye even so unto them. This is according to
the teachings of Christ and also the dic
tates of reason. The employer should re
member that the laborer Is worthy of his
hire,' that he Is entitled to ft fair and Just
compensation for his work and that he
should have kind treatment.
"I think there should be a closer relation
between employer and employe." continued
Cardinal Gibbons. "We should put our
selves In the places of those who work for
us and remember that they are men, with
feelings like ours; that they can be repelled
by an overbearing spirit, and that they are
stung by injustice and softened by kind
ness. We should realize that it rests with
us to a large extent whether their hearts
and homes are to be clouded with sorrow
or radiant wljh Joy."
"But many capitalists do that, your emi
nence, do they not?"
"Some do, but many do not," was the re
ply. "Most of tho trusts and monopolies
are operated with regard to large dividends
rather than for the claims of Christian
charity. I-lko tho car of Juggernaut, they
cruyli every obstacle In their way. They
try to corrupt our national and state legis
latures and city councils. They cut wages
and oppress their people. Such monopolies
should be regulated by law and protection
shoull be afforded to legitimate couipeUruf
corporations.
"Now, take the workingmen, your eml
nence," said I, "can you not give me a few
words of counsel for them."
"There Is little that I can say which I
have not already said to my people. I
would advise them to cultivate the spirit
of Industry, without which all the appli
ances of organized labor are unavailable.
Activity is the law of all intellectual and
animal life, and the man who works la
the happy man and also the successful man.
The majority of our rich men have become
so through their own untiring Industry.
"I would advise the workman to take ft
personal and conscientious Interest in his
employer. He Is to a certain extent a part
ner tn the business, and he should desire
Its prosperity. The sensible employer will
reward such service with a generous hand.
"Again," continued Cardinal Gibbons, "I
would advise the workman to foster habits
of economy and self-denial; to live within
his income and keep out of debt. Let him
be not overeager to amass wealth. To de
sire to accumulate a fortune is our na
tional distemper. Moderate means with
content are worth more than millions with
out It, and the poor man has blessings
which the rich man has not. There Is ft
story of a peasant who was going over a
man's farm hoping to catch some game
for his family. He was suddenly met by
the owner, and thereupon asked him how
ho happened to be out so early. 'I am
trying to find an appetite for my break
fast,' replied his lordship. "And I,' returned
the man, 'am out hunting a breakfast for
my appetite.' I leave It to you which man
was the richer.
"In conclusion," said the cardinal, "I
would advise the worklngman to be sober
and above all religious. But that is not for
the worklngman alone, but for all."
"It Is said that the labor unions are mov
ing toward socialism, your eminence. What
do you think of that?"
"The better sentiment of the United
States will never permit socialism to have
a hold In this country," was the reply.
The Catholic church Is opposed to It, as
Is everyone else. The socialist Is a drone
who wishes to feed on humanity. Ho
says to working labor and working capital,
'Go ahead and labor; I will stand aside
and loaf and enjoy the results.' "
"Speaking of the church, your eminence,
is tbere any change In Catholicism from
year to year. Have you a modern Catholi
cism?" "The Catholic church never changes, "
replied Cardinal Gibbons. "It Is the same
now as It has always been. It may adopt
new methods of treatment of certain things
to correspond with certain conditions, but
the church is ever and always the same."
"Tell me something about the pope, your
eminence."
"I can tell you nothing about him that
I have not said since I came back from
Europe," replied Cardinal Gibbons. "ITa
Is a man of ability and of great splrltu
allry. He has long been noted for but
generosity and kindness and his name tl
idolized in Venice on account of his chart"
ties."
"Is be n, broad-gange man?" I asked.
"I think so." replied his eminence, "ITS
has not Seen long in office, but his encycU
cals have already shown that."
FRANK a. CARPENTEB, '