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The Commoner;
railroads can affect legislation. It took us years
to got rid of tho pass you will recall; oven after
yo put In our platforms that wo wore opposed
to tho granting of passes, we would find men
elected on tho platform recolving passes and
tho pass had more influence than the platform.
Lot ino give you an illustration, if you will al
low me. I found when soveral states reduced
tho faro to 2 cents, that some of the roads were
charging an interstate rate that was greater
than sum of tho local rates. For instance,
I was going from Indianapolis to Chicago, and
was told that if I would got off tho train In
tho middle of tho night at the boundary, I could
buy two tickets for 2 cents a mile, but that if
I bought ono through ticket I would have to
pay a higher rate. I found that people from the
western end of Kansas would come down to tho
last station in Kansas 'before they reached Kan
sas City and got off tho train and go across tho
state lino on tho street car and save ovor $2
ovor tho interstate rate. I wrote to a member
of congress and asked him to introduco a bill
providing that tho interstate rate should not bo
groator than tho sum of tho state rates; he did
so but could not got it out of tho committee.
When I callod tho matter up some three years
ago I was told by a member of the committee
that it was submitted to the Interstate Com
merce Commission, and that the Interstate Com
merce Commission did not approve it, on tho
ground that it would bo allowing the states to
mako interstate rates.
My answer was that no state was allowed to r
mako an unfair rate, and as tho railroads in
each stato had a chance to prevent tho reduction
in each stato if it was unfair, it was fair to as
sume that an interstate rato no greater than
tho sum of the two rates could not be unfair;
but while wo could reduce the rates in the stato
wo could not do It in Congress as well as we
could in tho stato. I do not think wo ever can,
on tho theory that the farther a Congressman
gets away from homo tho more difficult it is to
watch him, and therefore the more difficult it
is to mako. him servo the public.
Mr. Winslow. Well, that is all right. You
would like to have this law passed by this con
gress. Mr. Bryan, Yes; but I-think' ir' you can got
public sentiment to tho point whore you can
force It to do ono thing, It may be easlor than
to force It all at once."
Mr. Winslow. But It would soera that it you
had a congress sufficiently unbiased you could
accomplish all these changes undor private man
agement us woll as undor government manage
ment, all that you have mentioned thus far?
Mr, Bryan. No; I would say that it was
possiblo because you have to consider conditions.
Whon you have an enormous organised interest
on ono sido which flnds It onormously profitable
to have Its way, you havo to assume that it will
havo moro or loss influenco In politics.
Mr. Winslow. Then why do you make the
stalomcnt that you could never expect to get
any such legislation through congress?
Mr. Bryan. Because you can have an Ibsuo
and men can bo olected on that Ibsuo and com
pelled by their constituents to state their posi
tion and carry it out; you can do that in an
emergency, whon there is a great issue, but you
can not do it every day, when the railroads aro
on guard ail tho time and tho people aro awake
only a part of tho time.
Mr. Winslow. Do you think that is so de
veloped at this timo that this congress will bo'
affected by the force of It?
Mr, Bryan. I am not prepared to express an
opinion on that, because this congress was
elected before this issue became acute, and my
observation is that It is easier to influence a
congressman before he is elected than after
wards. Mr. Winslow. I think no ono would under
take to dispute your authority. This is inter-"
osting, but perhaps not profitable. You spoko
of a sinking fund being created which -would
ho paid off in thirty years.
Mr. Bryan. Woll, I only mentioned that as
I a provision in this proposed plan that I thought
nan. jnorii, wiuiuut. auempung to dtscuss It
at all.
Mr. Winslow. The query- in my mind wag
whether or not you had had experience which
led you to lorn a, judgment on It, or whether
you were indulging in speculation on it.
Mr, Bryan. Well. I have this in mind, that
most of tho bond issues of cities and counties
and- states provide for a sinking fund that will
In a certain length of time pay oft the debt. I
think thi-3 Is in harmony with the general prac
tice In tho Issue of bonds.
Mr. Winslow. How would it do in railroad
legislation to provide for a sure Income xr a.
probably sure income, so as to mako It possible
to securo a sinking fund?
Mr. Bryan. It would not be possiblo to de
cide accurately in advance. Everything that is
done is estimated. Wocan not tell exactly what
tho expenses of the government will be, and yet
we estimate and appropriate, and then make up
tho deficit. And so if we tried to establish a
fund as a sinking fund, we would try to esti
mate tho amount necessary in fixing tho rate.
If we found the rates were not sufficient to raiso
tho sinking fund, we would havo to pay tho
sinking fund out of the government revenues
and reimburse ourselves by an increase in rates.
Mr. Winslow. So that the rates and charges
would have to be nado to meet that, whether
or no?
Mr. Bryan. That was the purpose of that
provision in that particular bill, but I merely
montloned It as ono of tho thin-: 'hat I thought
was a wise provision.
Mr. Winslow. Now, Colonel, ' ould like to
have you indicate, if you can with personal satis
faction or comfort, the case or cases wherein
railroads havo influenced legislation.
Mr, Bryan. I mentioned one, where for ten
years they delayed the passage of a bill to ex
tend the power of the Interstate Commerce
Commission, when the Interstate Commerce
Commission recommended it.
Mr. Winslow. Do you care to elaborate that
arid tell in what way that was done?
Mr. Bryan. My dear sir. if I could tell how
it was done, it would be easy to prevent it.
Mr. Winslow. You feel certain it is So, but
you can not prove it, then?
Mr. Bryan. I think there is evidence of it
in what the railroads do.
Mr. Winslow. Such as what?
Mr. Bryan. Well, suppose a man Is a mem
ber of tho legislature and votes for everything
the railroad wants, and then becomes the at
torney for the railroad at the conclusion of the
session. Would you regard that as significant?
Mr. Winslow. I did not hear that very well.
Mr. Bryan. Suppose a man is a member of
tho legislature and does everything the railroad
wants during the session, and then becomes the
attorney for tho railroad at the close of the ses
sion. Would you regard that as significant at
all, or think that there wasany relation be
tween the two?
Mr. Winslow. Not necessarily, any more than
tho retention by a client of the lawyer who has
walloped him in a case in court.
Mr. Bryan. Wtfll, I would say that I believe
the majority of the people would take a differ
ent view of it, and that I would be able to con
vince them that there was a relation in the case
that I give more easily than I have been able
to convince you.
Mr. Winslow. Well, you. would want to know
tho man?
Mr. Bryan. Yes.
Mr. Winslow. And he might be honest?
Mr. Bryan. Yes.
Mr. Winslow. He might develop conscientious
, ly a sufficient quality of mind and ability to re
commend him to a corporation as a proper person
to -employ as counsel?
Mr. Bryan. Yes; but I have In mind a case
that I can cite. We had a fight In Nebraska on
a railroad freight bill, and the railroads-thought
if they could get rid of one man they might To
able to defeat the bill. They took a state senator
out of the state, set him up, in a saloon In the
state of Washington, and he never came back.
. Mr. Winslow. You would hardly call that any
proof of your contention?
Mr. Bryan. I think there are many such cases
2?;wi!cll,wo must dlw the samo conclusion.
Mr. winslow. I understood you to say that you
know that railroads havo influenced legislation.
i -f'r Jyan 1 ospre,BS tt as a elef based on
what I havo een.
Bnr;?VJnsl04m I rlBht In inking that you
lJ?i yV0lt, that consress might be in
fluenced by railroads,?
Mr. Bryan. Why, certainly I said that. Have
you any doubt about it? ' vo
Mr. Winslow. About your saying It?
llT' 55J No' nJ al)ut the fact'.
you to confirm Trtmt I l,av said t0 mm
wIiJXinBlow- hat ia "lint lea mo to HilnTc
- . TOWMn
and I woujd like to get any direct wt
can that
tho Baltimore & Ohio Railroad waS Sin?1,1
congress. H.e was entitled to tho Jl? ed.to
was elected hefore ho actually became m V
He sat. on tho floor of the house SrLmember'
tives when I Was a membo and dSS
railroad sido of the fight on the pooling bill "
Mr. Winslow. Well, I think that mif v '
Bible; but whether or not hoVameoXr R
that direction is something else. vul,gre8s w
Mr. Bryan. That was a timo when passes mm
used, and wo havo plenty of evidence that n
railroads thought the pass had an Influence Z
instance, Mr. Ripley wrote a letter toTmemh
of the Illinois legislature (I think Mr.ffi
was at the time president of the Santa Fe 5
I am not sure). I remember tho letter he w'rZ
because I reproduced it in my paper. A member
of the legislature In Illinois had asked for a nan
Mr. Ripley's answer was, "You voted against all
our measures in. the last legislature. Why do you
ask for a pass, this session?" I knew a senator
in the Nebraska state legislature who voted for
the rate bill and received a request from a rail
road official, "As you have voted against us on
-that bill, wo presume you will not need the pass
any more."
Mr. Winslow. I think those questions aro
doubtful and dubious; but do they establish a
fundamental on. which wo can assume that con
gress has ovor been run by the railroad power?
Mr. Bryan. Well, I spoko of two cases where
the Pennsylvania and Baltimore & Ohio in recent
years had their lobbyists in tho capitol, and I
learned that from congressmen. One congress
man told me that a man stopped him and asked
him, "Why haven't you asked for transporta
tion?" And ho said, having occasion to go back
to his home & littlo "-while afterwards, ho met
this man and said to him, "I am going out to my
home; you referred to transportation the other
day, I could use a pass." The lobbyist said, "But
you voted against our bill." "Do you mean that
you thought that by giving me a pass you could
buy me?" asked the, congressman.
Now, I got that from a congressman.
Mr. Winslow. What was the rest of It?
Mr. Bryan. I do not think tho 'conversation
proceeded further than that. And another case
at the samo tlmet whero a member of congress
went and asked for a pass. This was either tho
Pennsylvania Railroad or tho Baltimore & Ohio;
I am not sure which, but one or the other. In
that case the lobbyist looked at the vote, went
over It to see how this man voted, and said, "You
voted against us", and he did not give him the
pass.
Now, of course, these are mere incidents, but
I dfd not suppose that there was any member of
congress who did not himself know enough inci
dents to reach the samo conclusion that I did,
I thought it was a matter of public knowledge.
Mr. Winslow. I will elaborate this a little bit-
and I am not trying to mako any grandstand
play but simply to get this right before the
congress. In view of your great prominence, your
statement will go out as you have made it. Now,
I havevonly been here a short time. I havo uvea
a longeFtime. I have heard before I came here
many such stories as those you have recited, ana
I supposed they had some foundation. I do not
want to provoke you to making a turn on me
on this.
Mr. Bryan. I would not want to.
Mr. iWinslow. You have not, and it Ib perfectly
all right, hut I can see tho attitude of the news
paper men, and I want to see the thing framw
set forth, and I am doing this for a real purpose.
When I came hero, One of the things I had w
mind war to locate, If possible, that sort or
fluonco; and I want to say to you frankly inw
while I may not be one bit brighter than an?
body else, and prQbably below the average, i
have never yet in tho seven years heard aw
spoken or observed an action which womow
dicate that there was an opportunity for a mew
ber of congress to make a dollar or to in
way heneflt himself through his lef1
authority or opportunity, and if f ft. on
different situation 25 years ago, I M?. Ynday.
try will not feel that that is the situation tow
I think the legislation in this congress and otj
congress that I have ohserved has been
and purely on tho merits of tho questions ww
it. regardless of individuals Wd party,
think that you oug"ht to assume with us, in
cmisii! ihik auestion, that' It Is a fact that
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