DECEMBER 27, 1912
The Commoner. n
The reactionary democrats can understand wk l i i rr
J fk JminL f P -J w? ? y no Proressive ould receive any office
under the administration or rresident Wi son W iW n n j . j l
, , i i . . . ,. Yllson Dut they can not understand why a progressive
should object to a reactionary tor anything
h
partially differentiate where your own interests
are concerned just as clearly as though you had
no interests at stake, do you?" continued Mr.
Untermeyer.
"Exactly, sir," replied the witness.
"And you are acting on the assumption all the
time, are you not?"
"I always do."
"Of course there is a possibility of your
judgment bfcing mistaken, is there not?"
"Oh, I may he wrong in my judgment, but
I do not think it leads in that direction."
"Does it not go somewhat on the theory that
the wish may be father to your thought?"
"What is your question?"
"That the wish to bring these interests to
gether may lead you to believe the country is
not injured by that sort of concentration?"
"I do not think so."
Later Mr. Untermeyer touched upon the basis
of money controL
"The control of credit involves the control of
money, does it not?" ho asked.
"No," said Mr. Morgan. "What I call money
i3 the basts of banking,"
"But the basis of hanking is credit, is it not?"
"Not always," said the witness; "that is an
evidence of banking, but it is not the money
itself. The money is gold nothing else "
Out of the discussion that followed between
the lawyer and the banker Mr. Untermeyer drew
the fact that comparatively little money exists
for the vast sub-superstructure of credit which
it supports.
"If you had the control of all that represents
the assets in the banks of New York you would
have control of money, of all that money," he
suggested.
"No, you would not," answered Mr. Morgan.
"If a man controlled the credit of a country
he would control all of its affairs," said Mr.
Untermeyer. A '
"He might have that view," retorted the
financier, "but he would not have the money.
If he had the credit and I had the money his
customer would be badly off."
Mr. Morgan again 'declared that money could
not be controlled. He added that many men
had great credit who had no money.
"Is it not believed that they have money
back of them?" asked Mr. Untermeyer.
"No, sir, it is because" people believe in the
man. I have known a, man to come to my office
and I have given him a check for a million
dollars when I knew-he had not a cent in the
world."
Mr. Morgan was led at some length into a
statement of his views on combination and con
centration of financial, affairs.
Mr. Morgan reiterated that he was an advo
cate of combination and cooperation, although
lie did not object to competition.
"Without you have control," he said, "you
can not do anything." ,,"
"Is that the reaBon you want to control
everything?" asked Mr. Untermeyer.
"I want to control nothing," retorted the
financier. ,
"There is no way one man can get a monopoly
of jnoney?" asked Mr. Untermeyer.
4'0r control of it," replied Mr. Morgan.
'Ho can make a try at it?"
"No sir; he can not. Ho may have all the
money in Christendom, but he can not do it."
'If you owned all the banks in New York,
Wth all their resources, would you not como
Pretty near having . control of credit?" asked
Mr. Untermeyer.
,No, sir, not at all.'!
Suppose you owned all the banks and trust
companies, or controlled them, and somebody
wanted to start up in the steel business against
toe United States gteej corporation and wanted
vast amount of capital, and it was a good
business, New York wpuld be the natural mar
ket for money, would it not?"
Tea."
flu"Lwant t0 now" whether) if you controlled
J these banks and a competitor came along or
iatial competitor ,who wanted to compete,
3d,!10 gct money from those banks you
control r asked Mr. Untermeyer.
Je8. Ue would."
bome other man who might control might
g take the same view ypu have?" suggested
Mr.,IMorgan!d hVQ th COttlrol" renlipu
whi-n11?'..8 Tr iIen 0f it? Your ldQa Is
J h'li A man has got a vast power, such as you
..e7you admit you have, do you not?"
j(I do not know it, sir."
"You admit you have, do you not?"
I do not think I have," said Mr. Morgan.
ou do not feel it at all?" asked Mr. Unter
meyer. "No, I do not feel it at all."
"Well, assuming that you had it, vour idea
is that when a man abuses it he loses it?"
Tes, and never gets it back again, cither."
"Have you any instance in your mind of any
such men who has had such power and control
in order to experiment with it?"
"No, but I know from experience," said Mr.
Morgan.
"Experience of your own?"
"No, I am talking about the experience of
having things. What I mean to say is this:
The question of control in this country at least
is personal; that is, in money."
"Have you not seen many instances in the
history of this country of financial men getting
vast control and abusing it through a long
period of years before they lost it?" asked Mr.
Untermeyer.
"Not one particular line and nobody that has
what you call a money trust or anything of that
kind," said Mr. Morgan.
"You admit, do you not, that men may get
control of railroads or business enterprises and
monopolize them and so abuse their privilege?"
"Yes."
"And you say that so far as the control of the
credit is concerned they can not do the same
thing?"
"On money, no, they can not control it," said
Mr. Morgan.
"Then the thing goes back to the question of
the control of banks and trust companies in
New York," said Mr. Untermeyer. "Do you
think that a competitive condition in tho banks
and trust companies of New York is moro or
less preferable than a concentrated control over
those banks "
"I would rather have competition," said Mr.
Morgan.
After ascertaining that a number of voting
trusts in various railroads and industrial cor
porations were held by members of tho firm of
J P. Morgan & Co. Mr. Untermeyer asked:
"Assuming you were the voting trusts for all
the greater systems of railroads in the United
States it would concentrate control in you would
"It would be a concentration in my hands
but the board of directors are the ones, and you
do not put the same board in every company,
8ai4ometfmeTtbey come pretty near it?" asked
Mr. Untermeyer.
"tfn sir never." said Mr. Morgan.
"Take the banks of New York. Do you
real Ihe'wenUty of direct , ir .the , b anl ?
"I do, but tho number of directors is very
concentration through having those sa.no d.rec
loron, TtoT -' at -" re-
Cyor think that competitive InsUtatlon.
that ought to bo competitive should have tho
same boards?"
"KVnk the, ought to have a prepon
derating influence in of "
I do not," f'dh."r-1"orroBa0n; m having the
Do you f ?'hnJ0 aKort business In
same men loo Ins '$ Mr. Untermeyer.
nefarfnoUooicing into each other's busl-
"tf ,r of t'Sffor oto l.w what
4 n oraYdire" to Sdoesnnot know He
"But a sra?. S pi? Mr. Morgan said,
does not see the books
oS "TurlXSK.. interlocked directors
hnA no actual power. and tnen
ha!7ou take three hanks,, he sam rf
th- -they Tre three out of the
twenty-five; in another they are throo out of
twenty; in another they arc throo of ton, if you
like."
"But suppose you have named all tho other
directors?" snld Mr. Untormejor, "auppoHO you
have n voting trust and you havo undor tho
power given by that voting truBt named tho
whole board, as has boon done in thoBO two
cases of the guaranty trust und tho bankers
trust."
"I am not talking about voting trusts; I am
parsing now on the question ot directors, of
three directors who go into throo or four or
ten banks. I say that those throo directors
and 1 havo been in a good many banks and n
good many corporations 1 defy any man to got
into any one of these boards. Kven myself I
will say for the sake of comment I do not be
lieve 1 could carry any one question through
any one board that I was director in, against
the views of tho directors."
"1h that all you wanted to say?"
"On tho contrary, I havo a groat quantity of
cases whero I could bring In proofs of it. Thoro
is no question of control unless you havo n
majority of tho directors in all tho banks," said
Mr. Morgan with emphasis.
"Can you name any instance, In which tho
board of directors on thoso various voting trusts
had undergone any considerable change- after'
the expiration of tho voting trust from tho way
In which It was constituted undor tho voting
trust, except whero death occurs tho vacancies
wero filled ?"
"1 think very seldom," said tho witness.
"You think they generally continue on the
samo board?"
"Yes, they are genernlly pretty well satisfied
with what thoy do."
"Who?" asked Mr. Untermeyer.
"The stockholders."
"Have you ever known an Instance In tho his
tory of corporations in this country whore tho
stock was largely scattered, iii which the stock
holders, however dissatisfied, havo ovor suc
ceeded in procuring a change of management?"
"I do not recall any at tho moment."
(Continued on Pago 10.)
T11K CALL OF TUB STUKET
As Wo Hear It Through n Former
rresident of tho Stock Kxclmiige.
Come, join in our gamble! Yo gullible, come!
But do not forget yo must pay and bo dumb,
In order, 0 lambs, to securo us,
Deposit your holdings of stock,
Dut utter no language sulphurous
If we should bo pawning a block.
Remember tho fact Is
Legitimate practice
Is putting your Hocking in hock!
Como, play with the ticker, O populace tume'
But do not object to our rules of tho game.
If Washem keeps buying and selling
A stock that is held in liis hat,
What reason for public rebelling
Can critics discover in that
Such counterfeit action
In mines or in traction
May bring in some customers fat.
Come, see our stock-Juggling! It's proper it
trado
Provided our members' commissions are paid,
A stock to a frazzle Is beaten
By men who on profits are bent.
The foolish investor is eaten
(His savings are swallowed, I meant).
Such work Isn't ochre,
Provided tho broker
Has raked In his proper per cent.
Come into the market, O Mr. E. Mark!
But do not forget that wo work In tho daTk.
Our secrets are sacredly guarded
As those of the Council of Ten;
Who tells them is rudely discarded
And ne'er Ib a brother again.
By all It's admitted
He's wholly unfitted
To live with particular men.
You Born-Onco-a-Minute, come deal with us! Do!
Yon certainly know what Ib waiting for you!
john O'Keefe in New York World.
In
tjM.a.